A simple numbering question

Wed Apr 6 12:17:30 PDT 2011

Hi Andy

With respect, I don't think the "two problems" that you listed are problems at all if you use consistent chapter/section/topic structure. Predictable structure is a Good Thing anyway, and even without using structured Frame it it a good idea to have well-defined structures for different types of content - and stick to them.

You also describe a complex numbering series as "hard enough to debug." Debugging is a snap if you draw a matrix of your numbered formats (as rows) and placeholders (as columns). Keep this available (I used to pin mine to the wall, but haven't needed it in years) and the cause of any numbering problem becomes immediately obvious.

And as Richard said, there is nothing to stop you using different series for, say, tables and graphics, and managing those at the document numbering level.

I would much prefer something like this than having to choose between Numbered and NumberedFirst when writing a list. No big deal, obviously, but one less thing to think about.

Regards,

Roger

Roger Shuttleworth
Technical Documentation
AV-BASE Systems Inc.
1000 Air Ontario Drive, Suite 200
London, Ontario
N5V 3S4
Tel. 519 691-0919 ext. 330
  _____  

From: Andy Kass [mailto:akass at jaspersoft.com]
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Sent: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 14:08:49 -0400
Subject: Re: A simple numbering question

Thanks for everyone's input, though it mostly confirms the two problems I listed.

  I already have 4 levels of headings and Table, Figure, and Code Listing numbering in one series, so I don't really want to add 2 more levels everywhere (and duplicate the work in the appendix numbering series--but for that I should've used $chapnum). It was hard enough to debug, and with this, I'd have to add the autonumber series to most of my paragraph tags, not just the numbered ones.

  And I am reluctant to require some sort of intro paragraph, because I often use the heading as an intro (but not always) so that it shows up in the TOC. So that will give me sections like this:

     4.3.2.1 Copying a File

     To copy a file:

     1. Select the file ...

  In my situation, it seems like numbered list (and step) numbering will always be a 2-format deal (Numbered and NumberedFirst).

  Regards,

    Andy

  ----- "Jay Mahler" <jay at mahler.com> wrote:

  > Andy,
  > 
  > To answer your question, yes, you need to reset your list numbering in
  > every paragraph type that could come between numbered lists. This
  > generally isn't a large set of tags for the document formats I use. I
  > often have a Numbered-cont paragraph tag that I use when numbered
  > items may end up being more than one paragraph. This paragraph style
  > indents and doesn't clear any of the auto-numbers. 
  > 
  > Regarding your example of a figure anchor paragraph, I generally try
  > to avoid this technique. I know many Framers use a special anchor
  > paragraph to keep figure numbers/captions with the anchored frame, but
  > I prefer to put the anchor at the end of the paragraph that first
  > references the figure. To keep the figure number with the anchored
  > frame, I'll put a text frame inside of the graphic anchored frame at
  > the bottom and house the figure caption inside the graphic's anchored
  > frame. 
  > 
  > Frankly, all of my clients lately have had predefined templates that
  > use the Numbered-1, Numbered, etc., and Anchor paragraph techniques,
  > so I haven't practiced what I'm preaching here in several years.
  > 
  > Regarding your second point, the last time I did this, I used a fairly
  > complex auto-numbering series. For example, assume that I have a
  > document that requires a chapter numbers, Heading 1 numbers, and
  > Heading 2 numbers, Numbered list, Lettered (sub) lists, Figure
  > numbers, and Table numbers, the auto-number formats would be something
  > like this:
  > 
  > Chapter: N:<n+>< =0>< =0>< =0>< =0>< =0>< =0>
  > Heading 1: N:<n>.<n+>< =0>< =0>< =0>
  > Heading  2: N:<n>.<n>.<n+>< =0>< =0>
  > Body: N:< >< >< >< =0>< =0>
  > Numbered: N: < >< >< ><n+>< =0>
  > Lettered: N: < >< >< >< ><a+>
  > Figure: Figure <n>-< >< >< >< ><n+> 
  > Table: Table <n>-< >< >< >< >< ><n+>
  > 
  > This assumes that figure and table numbers have the <chapter>-<number>
  > format, and they reset to one for each new chapter. I don't remember
  > if I needed the empty < > for Figure and Table numbers on paragraph
  > tags that didn't reset or use those numbers.
  > 
  > I guess the bottom line is that this auto-numbering style is more
  > complex, but you only need to do it once. With the explicit set to one
  > numbering, you're always having to select one of two style for each
  > type of numbering. You also need to revisit the paragraph style if you
  > ever enter a new Numbered-1 above the old one.
  > 
  > Jay
  > -----Original Message-----
  > From: Andy Kass [mailto:akass at jaspersoft.com] 
  > Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 4:25 PM
  > To: framers at lists.frameusers.com; Jay Mahler
  > Subject: RE: A simple numbering question
  > 
  > Hi,
  > 
  > At first, I really liked Jay's idea. Those NumberedFirst and
  > NumberedAlphaFirst para tags in my own templates have been bothering
  > me for quite a while.
  > 
  > But the more I think about it, the less I think it is practical, or
  > even possible. I see two problems:
  > 
  > 1. With this solution, you need to reset your list numbering in every
  > paragraph type that could come between numbered lists, but not in ones
  > that are allowed inside a numbered list. And I'm not sure those two
  > groups are mutually exclusive. For example, I could have a figure (in
  > my figure anchor paragraph) both as a separator (and nothing else)
  > between procedures and as a illustration inside a procedure.
  > 
  > 2. Any tag that may separate numbered lists (by itself) cannot have
  > its own numbering (because paragraphs can have only one autonumber
  > series). So I cannot use headings alone between lists, unless I put
  > all my autonumbering into a single series, but that would be even more
  > confusing.
  > 
  > I am wondering how you solved these problems. From what I see, you
  > need to have usage rules such as "always put an intro paragraph or
  > instruction lead-in" before a procedure (so that lists are separated
  > and numbering is reset), or you need a more complicated numbering
  > format on all your tags. And both of those seem more complex and
  > error-prone than the NumberedFirst para tags.
  > 
  > Thanks,
  > 
  >   Andy
  > 
  > ----------
  > Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 13:58:56 -0400
  > From: Jay Mahler <jay at mahler.com>
  > To: "framers at lists.frameusers.com" <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
  > Subject: RE: A simple numbering question
  > Message-ID:
  >        
  > <2827841E8340F047862E0808EF03C9D91E754488E8 at winxbeus16.exchange.xchg>
  > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
  > 
  > I agree. Zeroing lists with Body tags and some lists on each chapter
  > or header tag is something I highly recommend. My Numbering format for
  > Body tags often look something like this: N:< =0>< =0>< =0>
  > 
  > Then, I can have simple formats for Numbered, Numbered-A, Numbered-a,
  > etc. There is nothing I hate more than a template required by a client
  > that has a bunch of Numbered-1, Numbered; Numbered-A-1, Numbered-A,
  > etc. formats. It just makes the document harder to maintain.
  > 
  > Jay Mahler
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