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> Gesendet: Dienstag, 8. Januar 2019 22:03
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> Betreff: Framers Digest, Vol 154, Issue 6
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re:  OT: Punctuation question (Mike Wickham)
>    2.  OT: Punctuation question (Karen Robbins)
>    3. Re:  OT: Punctuation question (Doug)
>    4. Re:  OT: Punctuation question (tammyvb at spectrumwritingllc.com)
>    5. Re:  OT: Punctuation question (Stephen Rickaby)
>    6. Re:  OT: Punctuation question (Stephen Rickaby)
>    7. Re:  OT: Punctuation question (shuttie27)
>    8. Re:  OT: Punctuation question (Michael Lewis)
>    9. Re:  OT: Punctuation question (Stephen Rickaby)
>   10. Re:  OT: Punctuation question (Tom Beiswenger)
>   11. Re:  OT: Punctuation question (Johan Anglemark)
>   12. Re:  OT: Punctuation question (Jeff Coatsworth)
>   13. Re:  OT: Punctuation question (Doug)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 19:08:07 -0600
> From: Mike Wickham <info at mikewickham.com>
> To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question
> Message-ID: <0d9651b3-654b-f722-fc97-3bcc8f7657e4 at mikewickham.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> For comma placement, I'd pick #1, which matches the _Chicago Manual of
> Style_, but I'd also suggest tightening the sentence and removing passive
> voice. Result:
> 
> "The information displays across five tabs: Overview, Category, Locus,
> Sequence, and Details."
> 
> I would note that the Chicago style is typically used by book publishers, while
> AP style is used for newspapers. The latter omits certain commas and words
> to make them fit better into short stories in narrow columns. In any case,
> sometimes minor rewrites eliminate fights over punctuation.
> 
> Mike Wickham
> 
> On 1/7/2019 12:34 PM, tammyvb at spectrumwritingllc.com wrote:
> > Consider the following three sentences:
> >
> >
> >
> > 1.)    The information is displayed across five tabs, which, from left to
> > right, are the following: Overview, Category, Locus, Sequence, and Details.
> >
> > 2.)    The information is displayed across five tabs, which from left to
> > right, are the following: Overview, Category, Locus, Sequence, and Details.
> >
> > 3.)    The information is displayed across five tabs, which from left to
> > right are the following: Overview, Category, Locus, Sequence, and Details.
> >
> >
> >
> > Three different editors. Three different copy edits. I have my
> > 'druthers, but I thought I would reach out to all the writers on this
> > list and get a majority opinion. And yes, I am saying opinion, because
> > I know that there is an absolute right and wrong, but I need to be
> > neutral and non-judgmental when supplying my feedback and making the
> > correction. Three egos are involved. . . .
> >
> >
> >
> > TVB
> >
> >
> >
> > Tammy Van Boening
> >
> > Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
> >
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
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> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 17:10:55 -0800
> From: Karen Robbins <karendesign at gmail.com>
> To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
> Subject: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAEWxDVZAX8TpcNjE_BAFov-jtJxZX-
> hj6pStj8MkOvqP+Hzv2w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> Hi Tammy,
> 
> The information* is displayed across five tabs. From left to right, they are
> Overview, Category, Locus, Sequence, and Details.
> 
> * labels? titles? topics? (+ "are")
> 
> My 2?.
> 
> Karen Robbins
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 20:45:55 -0500
> From: Doug <dbailey4117 at gmail.com>
> To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> 	<framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question
> Message-ID:
> 	<CANLqyK2=YfNYn_CiaAfZ_JM0R4LuJU4o6oXp2wWGnmz74zaskg@
> mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> >
> >
> > If you must have the 'and' I would removed the Oxford comma as I hate
> > them, but this is a matter of local style.
> >
> >
> I've always thought two of a tech writer's top values are accuracy, and
> avoidance of ambiguity.  The Oxford (or serial) comma is essential for both of
> these.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 19:18:02 -0700
> From: <tammyvb at spectrumwritingllc.com>
> To: "'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'"
> 	<framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question
> Message-ID: <001501d4a6f8$62250300$266f0900$@spectrumwritingllc.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> I knew I would get a flurry of answers from the list, so thanks. I have what I
> need to make some substantiated edits.
> 
> Much appreciated.
> 
> Tammy Van Boening
> Tammy dot vanboening at spectrumwritingllc dot com
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> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Framers
> <framers-
> bounces+tammyvb=spectrumwritingllc.com at lists.frameusers.com> On
> Behalf Of Doug
> Sent: Monday, January 7, 2019 6:46 PM
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question
> 
> >
> >
> > If you must have the 'and' I would removed the Oxford comma as I hate
> > them, but this is a matter of local style.
> >
> >
> I've always thought two of a tech writer's top values are accuracy, and
> avoidance of ambiguity.  The Oxford (or serial) comma is essential for both of
> these.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 08:49:42 +0000
> From: Stephen Rickaby <srickaby at wordmongers.demon.co.uk>
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> 	<framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question
> Message-ID: <p06240803d85a12a95e86@[10.211.55.5]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> At 20:45 -0500 7/1/19, Doug wrote:
> 
> >I've always thought two of a tech writer's top values are accuracy, and
> >avoidance of ambiguity.  The Oxford (or serial) comma is essential for
> >both of these.
> 
> I should have been clearer and a bit less grumpy ;-) I follow the Oxford style,
> which is to omit the comma unless ambiguity is caused by doing so.
> 
> --
> Steve
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 08:49:42 +0000
> From: Stephen Rickaby <srickaby at wordmongers.demon.co.uk>
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> 	<framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question
> Message-ID: <p06240804d85a133e8171@[10.211.55.5]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> At 19:18 -0700 7/1/19, <tammyvb at spectrumwritingllc.com> wrote:
> 
> >I knew I would get a flurry of answers from the list, so thanks. I have what
> >I need to make some substantiated edits.
> 
> Clearly I don't know the context of the surrounding text, but I think I'd favor
> some sort of list structure that introduces the information, then lists the tabs
> and gives brief details of the information displayed under each tab. Without
> more information I can't tell whether this would be appropriate, but if it is it
> would concentrate as much information in as small a space while being as
> unambiguous as possible.
> 
> Say...
> 
> 'The tabs display the data as follows:
> 
> * Overview - (list of stuff under this tab)
> 
> * Category - (list of stuff under this tab)
> 
> * Locus - (list of stuff under this tab)
> 
> * Sequence - (list of stuff under this tab)
> 
> * Details - (list of stuff under this tab)'
> 
> But this might not be appropriate to the styles of your document.
> 
> Good luck, anyway - this is the sort of thing that makes editing enjoyable.
> 
> --
> Steve
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2019 09:33:30 +0000
> From: shuttie27 <shuttie27 at gmail.com>
> To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> 	<framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question
> Message-ID: <5c346e68.1c69fb81.200d0.4d50 at mx.google.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> Two points:The "Oxford style" is to include the comma, not to omit it. It was
> so named because the Oxford University Press, almost alone among British
> publishers, mandated it in their style guide.Secondly, as for its being essential
> to avoid ambiguity, tell that to all the other British and other publishers who
> don't use it, and generations of British and other writers who have never
> used it.
> Roger
> 
> 
> Sent from my tablet.
> -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Rickaby
> <srickaby at wordmongers.demon.co.uk> Date: 08/01/2019  08:49
> (GMT+00:00) To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker
> software." <framers at lists.frameusers.com> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT:
> Punctuation question
> At 20:45 -0500 7/1/19, Doug wrote:
> 
> >I've always thought two of a tech writer's top values are accuracy, and
> >avoidance of ambiguity.? The Oxford (or serial) comma is essential for both
> >of these.
> 
> I should have been clearer and a bit less grumpy ;-) I follow the Oxford style,
> which is to omit the comma unless ambiguity is caused by doing so.
> 
> --
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> 
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2019 20:47:26 +1100
> From: Michael Lewis <mlewis44 at optusnet.com.au>
> To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> 	<framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question
> Message-ID:
> <0493ex5iruvvxhdli2voxlfp.1546940846582 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> Ah. But it is necessary *sometimes*. The basis of the Oxford style is that
> including it is sometimes necessary but never harmful. Its consistent
> omission is often predicated on the quite false assumption that it does the
> same job as "and" so need never be used alongside it. But "and" is purely
> conjunctive whereas the comma can also be disjunctive.
> - Michael Lewis?
> 
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.-------- Original message --------
> From: shuttie27 <shuttie27 at gmail.com> Date: 08/01/2019  20:33
> (GMT+10:00) To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker
> software." <framers at lists.frameusers.com> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT:
> Punctuation question
> Two points:The "Oxford style" is to include the comma, not to omit it. It was
> so named because the Oxford University Press, almost alone among British
> publishers, mandated it in their style guide.Secondly, as for its being essential
> to avoid ambiguity, tell that to all the other British and other publishers who
> don't use it, and generations of British and other writers who have never
> used it.
> Roger
> 
> 
> Sent from my tablet.
> -------- Original message --------From: Stephen Rickaby
> <srickaby at wordmongers.demon.co.uk> Date: 08/01/2019? 08:49?
> (GMT+00:00) To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker
> software." <framers at lists.frameusers.com> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT:
> Punctuation question
> At 20:45 -0500 7/1/19, Doug wrote:
> 
> >I've always thought two of a tech writer's top values are accuracy, and
> >avoidance of ambiguity.? The Oxford (or serial) comma is essential for both
> >of these.
> 
> I should have been clearer and a bit less grumpy ;-) I follow the Oxford style,
> which is to omit the comma unless ambiguity is caused by doing so.
> 
> --
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> 
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 10:10:34 +0000
> From: Stephen Rickaby <srickaby at wordmongers.demon.co.uk>
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> 	<framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question
> Message-ID: <p06240806d85a23407025@[10.211.55.5]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> At 09:33 +0000 8/1/19, shuttie27 wrote:
> 
> >Two points:The "Oxford style" is to include the comma, not to omit it. It was
> so named because the Oxford University Press, almost alone among British
> publishers, mandated it in their style guide. Secondly, as for its being
> essential to avoid ambiguity, tell that to all the other British and other
> publishers who don't use it, and generations of British and other writers who
> have never used it.
> 
> You are correct; I miswrote. 'Oxford Guide to Style', R M Ritter (an American
> gentleman, by the way), OUP 2002, pp 121-122. This cites many instances
> where the serial comma is necessary to avoid ambiguity, but admits that
> omitting it is often done in US and UK English, but then goes on to suggest
> that you might as well bung it in anyway.
> 
> However, following the publication of this book there was a good deal of
> spirited debate on the topic. As far as I remember (and I communicated with
> Mr Ritter at the time but have mislaid the emails), the consensus, based on
> several existing styles guides, was that 'UK style' was to omit the serial
> comma unless by so doing ambiguity was introduced, while US style was
> always to include it.
> 
> Here for example is the relevant part of the British Psycholoigcal Society's
> style guide:
> 
> [Commas are...] Not required before 'and' in a list of items, unless to avoid an
> ambiguity or to clarify where one item ends and another begins (particularly
> where the items are lengthy). Examples:
> 
> * ..in the professional work of clinical, forensic and educational psychologists.
> 
> * The Bishops of Winchester, and Bath and Wells [two bishops, not three]
> 
> Or this from the Thomson Learning style guide:
> 
> * Do not impose serial commas in lists of three or more items except to avoid
> ambiguity.
> 
> Or from The Economist style guide:
> 
> * Lists: with lists do not put a comma before 'and' at the end of a sequence of
> items unless one of the items includes another 'and'.
> 
> Thus:
> 
> 'The doctor suggested an aspirin, half a grapefruit and a cup of broth. But he
> ordered scrambled eggs, whisky and soda, and a selection from the trolley.'
> 
> --
> Steve
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 10
> Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 11:55:35 +0000
> From: "Tom Beiswenger" <tom.beiswenger at emhartglass.com>
> To: "Frameusers List" <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question
> Message-ID:
> 	<OFEB1F19D6.71EB1806-ON0025837C.00405858-
> 0025837C.00418384 at notes.ce.collabserv.com>
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> It's more than "Oxford style." The use of a serial comma is covered in the
> Chicago Manual of Style. Per entry 5.50: "In a series consisting of three or
> more elements, the elements are separated by commas. When a
> conjunction joins the last two elements in a series, a comma is used before
> the conjunction." The British "The Economist Style Guide" specifically directs
> writers to NOT use a serial comma.
> 
> I have followed the serial comma rule since I went from being a newspaper
> journalist to being a technical writer nearly 30 years ago. My personal opinion
> is that the serial comma can be optional, but whether it is used or no used
> must be consistent throughout any document or book. We have been using
> it for more than 30 years. I see no need to change.
> 
> 
> Tom Beiswenger
> Project Manager, Manager IB Technical Documentation
> 
> Emhart Glass Inc.
> 74 Kahler Road North ? Horseheads NY 14845 ? USA
> Telephone 1 607 735 2551 ? Mobile +1 607 769 4779
> Fax +1 607 735 2601
> tom.beiswenger at emhartglass.com
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-
> 3A__www.bucheremhartglass.com&d=DwICAg&c=fbaT_DgZBVToMmtoR86
> Pug&r=5lSbtJEGZuJRV8DTjDI-chd6QpjyHKsn-
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> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-
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> bV34tVbx0o&s=peH0mr5qoY_mwW1_moCheS00RkDjqysxJYuwxcGu1QY&e=
> 
> -----"Framers" <framers-
> bounces+tom.beiswenger=emhartglass.com at lists.frameusers.com> wrote:
> -----
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> From: Stephen Rickaby
> Sent by: "Framers"
> Date: 01/08/2019 05:10AM
> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question
> 
> At 09:33 +0000 8/1/19, shuttie27 wrote:
> 
> >Two points:The "Oxford style" is to include the comma, not to omit it. It was
> so named because the Oxford University Press, almost alone among British
> publishers, mandated it in their style guide. Secondly, as for its being
> essential to avoid ambiguity, tell that to all the other British and other
> publishers who don't use it, and generations of British and other writers who
> have never used it.
> 
> You are correct; I miswrote. 'Oxford Guide to Style', R M Ritter (an American
> gentleman, by the way), OUP 2002, pp 121-122. This cites many instances
> where the serial comma is necessary to avoid ambiguity, but admits that
> omitting it is often done in US and UK English, but then goes on to suggest
> that you might as well bung it in anyway.
> 
> However, following the publication of this book there was a good deal of
> spirited debate on the topic. As far as I remember (and I communicated with
> Mr Ritter at the time but have mislaid the emails), the consensus, based on
> several existing styles guides, was that 'UK style' was to omit the serial
> comma unless by so doing ambiguity was introduced, while US style was
> always to include it.
> 
> Here for example is the relevant part of the British Psycholoigcal Society's
> style guide:
> 
> [Commas are...] Not required before 'and' in a list of items, unless to avoid an
> ambiguity or to clarify where one item ends and another begins (particularly
> where the items are lengthy). Examples:
> 
> * ..in the professional work of clinical, forensic and educational psychologists.
> 
> * The Bishops of Winchester, and Bath and Wells [two bishops, not three]
> 
> Or this from the Thomson Learning style guide:
> 
> * Do not impose serial commas in lists of three or more items except to avoid
> ambiguity.
> 
> Or from The Economist style guide:
> 
> * Lists: with lists do not put a comma before 'and' at the end of a sequence of
> items unless one of the items includes another 'and'.
> 
> Thus:
> 
> 'The doctor suggested an aspirin, half a grapefruit and a cup of broth. But he
> ordered scrambled eggs, whisky and soda, and a selection from the trolley.'
> 
> --
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> 
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
> 
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 11
> Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 12:57:45 +0100
> From: Johan Anglemark <johan.anglemark at iar.com>
> To: <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question
> Message-ID: <954d218e-d50f-46ab-1032-70f78e940dda at iar.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed
> 
> Could we please take the religious discussions elsewhere than this list?
> 
> -j
> 
> On 2019-01-08 12:55, Tom Beiswenger wrote:
> > It's more than "Oxford style." The use of a serial comma is covered in the
> Chicago Manual of Style. Per entry 5.50: "In a series consisting of three or
> more elements, the elements are separated by commas. When a
> conjunction joins the last two elements in a series, a comma is used before
> the conjunction." The British "The Economist Style Guide" specifically directs
> writers to NOT use a serial comma.
> >
> > I have followed the serial comma rule since I went from being a newspaper
> journalist to being a technical writer nearly 30 years ago. My personal opinion
> is that the serial comma can be optional, but whether it is used or no used
> must be consistent throughout any document or book. We have been using
> it for more than 30 years. I see no need to change.
> >
> >
> > Tom Beiswenger
> > Project Manager, Manager IB Technical Documentation
> >
> > Emhart Glass Inc.
> > 74 Kahler Road North ? Horseheads NY 14845 ? USA
> > Telephone 1 607 735 2551 ? Mobile +1 607 769 4779
> > Fax +1 607 735 2601
> > tom.beiswenger at emhartglass.com
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-
> 3A__www.bucheremhartglass.com&d=DwICAg&c=fbaT_DgZBVToMmtoR86
> Pug&r=5lSbtJEGZuJRV8DTjDI-chd6QpjyHKsn-
> Gp8D90O9Pk&m=ZCeg7yqGlLWuT0T16EAlBdLt9-J_43pC-
> bV34tVbx0o&s=aCD4sfA-6Za1VieTpV7rNNA_ttMoeRD-rehgv65sHMM&e=
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-
> 3A__www.bucherindustries.com&d=DwICAg&c=fbaT_DgZBVToMmtoR86Pu
> g&r=5lSbtJEGZuJRV8DTjDI-chd6QpjyHKsn-
> Gp8D90O9Pk&m=ZCeg7yqGlLWuT0T16EAlBdLt9-J_43pC-
> bV34tVbx0o&s=0H7Ire4RFk6ituQU2E94bmuYzEN4tOsWtuEi0mXtilE&e=
> > Privacy Policy: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-
> 3A__www.bucheremhartglass.com_privacy&d=DwICAg&c=fbaT_DgZBVToM
> mtoR86Pug&r=5lSbtJEGZuJRV8DTjDI-chd6QpjyHKsn-
> Gp8D90O9Pk&m=ZCeg7yqGlLWuT0T16EAlBdLt9-J_43pC-
> bV34tVbx0o&s=peH0mr5qoY_mwW1_moCheS00RkDjqysxJYuwxcGu1QY&e=
> >
> > -----"Framers" <framers-
> bounces+tom.beiswenger=emhartglass.com at lists.frameusers.com> wrote:
> -----
> > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > From: Stephen Rickaby
> > Sent by: "Framers"
> > Date: 01/08/2019 05:10AM
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question
> >
> > At 09:33 +0000 8/1/19, shuttie27 wrote:
> >
> >> Two points:The "Oxford style" is to include the comma, not to omit it. It
> was so named because the Oxford University Press, almost alone among
> British publishers, mandated it in their style guide. Secondly, as for its being
> essential to avoid ambiguity, tell that to all the other British and other
> publishers who don't use it, and generations of British and other writers who
> have never used it.
> >
> > You are correct; I miswrote. 'Oxford Guide to Style', R M Ritter (an
> American gentleman, by the way), OUP 2002, pp 121-122. This cites many
> instances where the serial comma is necessary to avoid ambiguity, but admits
> that omitting it is often done in US and UK English, but then goes on to
> suggest that you might as well bung it in anyway.
> >
> > However, following the publication of this book there was a good deal of
> spirited debate on the topic. As far as I remember (and I communicated with
> Mr Ritter at the time but have mislaid the emails), the consensus, based on
> several existing styles guides, was that 'UK style' was to omit the serial
> comma unless by so doing ambiguity was introduced, while US style was
> always to include it.
> >
> > Here for example is the relevant part of the British Psycholoigcal Society's
> style guide:
> >
> > [Commas are...] Not required before 'and' in a list of items, unless to avoid
> an ambiguity or to clarify where one item ends and another begins
> (particularly where the items are lengthy). Examples:
> >
> > * ..in the professional work of clinical, forensic and educational
> psychologists.
> >
> > * The Bishops of Winchester, and Bath and Wells [two bishops, not three]
> >
> > Or this from the Thomson Learning style guide:
> >
> > * Do not impose serial commas in lists of three or more items except to
> avoid ambiguity.
> >
> > Or from The Economist style guide:
> >
> > * Lists: with lists do not put a comma before 'and' at the end of a sequence
> of items unless one of the items includes another 'and'.
> >
> > Thus:
> >
> > 'The doctor suggested an aspirin, half a grapefruit and a cup of broth. But
> he ordered scrambled eggs, whisky and soda, and a selection from the
> trolley.'
> >
> 
> 
> --
> Johan Anglemark
> 
> Tel: 0708-65 10 88
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 12
> Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 13:35:53 +0000
> From: Jeff Coatsworth <Jeff.Coatsworth at jonasclub.com>
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> 	<framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question
> Message-ID: <39fde43dad7145d886b2edb195b3d98b at jonasclub.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
> 
> Sounds like a Watercooler channel discussion on the Write the Docs Slack
> channel ;>)
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Framers <framers-
> bounces+jeff.coatsworth=jonasclub.com at lists.frameusers.com> on behalf
> of Johan Anglemark <johan.anglemark at iar.com>
> Sent: January 8, 2019 6:57 AM
> To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question
> 
> Could we please take the religious discussions elsewhere than this list?
> 
> -j
> 
> On 2019-01-08 12:55, Tom Beiswenger wrote:
> > It's more than "Oxford style." The use of a serial comma is covered in the
> Chicago Manual of Style. Per entry 5.50: "In a series consisting of three or
> more elements, the elements are separated by commas. When a
> conjunction joins the last two elements in a series, a comma is used before
> the conjunction." The British "The Economist Style Guide" specifically directs
> writers to NOT use a serial comma.
> >
> > I have followed the serial comma rule since I went from being a newspaper
> journalist to being a technical writer nearly 30 years ago. My personal opinion
> is that the serial comma can be optional, but whether it is used or no used
> must be consistent throughout any document or book. We have been using
> it for more than 30 years. I see no need to change.
> >
> >
> > Tom Beiswenger
> > Project Manager, Manager IB Technical Documentation
> >
> > Emhart Glass Inc.
> > 74 Kahler Road North ? Horseheads NY 14845 ? USA
> > Telephone 1 607 735 2551 ? Mobile +1 607 769 4779
> > Fax +1 607 735 2601
> > tom.beiswenger at emhartglass.com
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-
> 3A__www.bucheremhartglass.com&d=DwICAg&c=fbaT_DgZBVToMmtoR86
> Pug&r=5lSbtJEGZuJRV8DTjDI-chd6QpjyHKsn-
> Gp8D90O9Pk&m=ZCeg7yqGlLWuT0T16EAlBdLt9-J_43pC-
> bV34tVbx0o&s=aCD4sfA-6Za1VieTpV7rNNA_ttMoeRD-
> rehgv65sHMM&e=<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-
> 3A__www.bucheremhartglass.com&d=DwICAg&c=fbaT_DgZBVToMmtoR86
> Pug&r=5lSbtJEGZuJRV8DTjDI-chd6QpjyHKsn-
> Gp8D90O9Pk&m=ZCeg7yqGlLWuT0T16EAlBdLt9-J_43pC-
> bV34tVbx0o&s=aCD4sfA-6Za1VieTpV7rNNA_ttMoeRD-rehgv65sHMM&e=>
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-
> 3A__www.bucherindustries.com&d=DwICAg&c=fbaT_DgZBVToMmtoR86Pu
> g&r=5lSbtJEGZuJRV8DTjDI-chd6QpjyHKsn-
> Gp8D90O9Pk&m=ZCeg7yqGlLWuT0T16EAlBdLt9-J_43pC-
> bV34tVbx0o&s=0H7Ire4RFk6ituQU2E94bmuYzEN4tOsWtuEi0mXtilE&e=<http
> s://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-
> 3A__www.bucherindustries.com&d=DwICAg&c=fbaT_DgZBVToMmtoR86Pu
> g&r=5lSbtJEGZuJRV8DTjDI-chd6QpjyHKsn-
> Gp8D90O9Pk&m=ZCeg7yqGlLWuT0T16EAlBdLt9-J_43pC-
> bV34tVbx0o&s=0H7Ire4RFk6ituQU2E94bmuYzEN4tOsWtuEi0mXtilE&e=>
> > Privacy Policy: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-
> 3A__www.bucheremhartglass.com_privacy&d=DwICAg&c=fbaT_DgZBVToM
> mtoR86Pug&r=5lSbtJEGZuJRV8DTjDI-chd6QpjyHKsn-
> Gp8D90O9Pk&m=ZCeg7yqGlLWuT0T16EAlBdLt9-J_43pC-
> bV34tVbx0o&s=peH0mr5qoY_mwW1_moCheS00RkDjqysxJYuwxcGu1QY&e=
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-
> 3A__www.bucheremhartglass.com_privacy&d=DwICAg&c=fbaT_DgZBVToM
> mtoR86Pug&r=5lSbtJEGZuJRV8DTjDI-chd6QpjyHKsn-
> Gp8D90O9Pk&m=ZCeg7yqGlLWuT0T16EAlBdLt9-J_43pC-
> bV34tVbx0o&s=peH0mr5qoY_mwW1_moCheS00RkDjqysxJYuwxcGu1QY&e=
> >
> >
> > -----"Framers" <framers-
> bounces+tom.beiswenger=emhartglass.com at lists.frameusers.com> wrote:
> -----
> > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > From: Stephen Rickaby
> > Sent by: "Framers"
> > Date: 01/08/2019 05:10AM
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question
> >
> > At 09:33 +0000 8/1/19, shuttie27 wrote:
> >
> >> Two points:The "Oxford style" is to include the comma, not to omit it. It
> was so named because the Oxford University Press, almost alone among
> British publishers, mandated it in their style guide. Secondly, as for its being
> essential to avoid ambiguity, tell that to all the other British and other
> publishers who don't use it, and generations of British and other writers who
> have never used it.
> >
> > You are correct; I miswrote. 'Oxford Guide to Style', R M Ritter (an
> American gentleman, by the way), OUP 2002, pp 121-122. This cites many
> instances where the serial comma is necessary to avoid ambiguity, but admits
> that omitting it is often done in US and UK English, but then goes on to
> suggest that you might as well bung it in anyway.
> >
> > However, following the publication of this book there was a good deal of
> spirited debate on the topic. As far as I remember (and I communicated with
> Mr Ritter at the time but have mislaid the emails), the consensus, based on
> several existing styles guides, was that 'UK style' was to omit the serial
> comma unless by so doing ambiguity was introduced, while US style was
> always to include it.
> >
> > Here for example is the relevant part of the British Psycholoigcal Society's
> style guide:
> >
> > [Commas are...] Not required before 'and' in a list of items, unless to avoid
> an ambiguity or to clarify where one item ends and another begins
> (particularly where the items are lengthy). Examples:
> >
> > * ..in the professional work of clinical, forensic and educational
> psychologists.
> >
> > * The Bishops of Winchester, and Bath and Wells [two bishops, not three]
> >
> > Or this from the Thomson Learning style guide:
> >
> > * Do not impose serial commas in lists of three or more items except to
> avoid ambiguity.
> >
> > Or from The Economist style guide:
> >
> > * Lists: with lists do not put a comma before 'and' at the end of a sequence
> of items unless one of the items includes another 'and'.
> >
> > Thus:
> >
> > 'The doctor suggested an aspirin, half a grapefruit and a cup of broth. But
> he ordered scrambled eggs, whisky and soda, and a selection from the
> trolley.'
> >
> 
> 
> --
> Johan Anglemark
> 
> Tel: 0708-65 10 88
> _______________________________________________
> 
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
> 
> Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> Visit the list's homepage at
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-
> 3A__www.frameusers.com&d=DwICAg&c=fbaT_DgZBVToMmtoR86Pug&r=5
> lSbtJEGZuJRV8DTjDI-chd6QpjyHKsn-
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> Message: 13
> Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 09:39:30 -0500
> From: Doug <dbailey4117 at gmail.com>
> To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> 	<framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question
> Message-ID:
> 	<CANLqyK2uTx4bgsgut_-
> 0aEWXkB+RviO8F8rUq=a6CdpekhOO9Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> I concur with Michael, in that the serial comma it is sometimes necessary
> but regardless, it is never harmful.  I use the serial comma by default,
> unless the 'and' is part of a singular grouping such as "Bath and Wells" or
> "Marks and Spencer", or some such.
> 
> Doug
> 
> On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 4:47 AM Michael Lewis <mlewis44 at optusnet.com.au>
> wrote:
> 
> > Ah. But it is necessary *sometimes*. The basis of the Oxford style is that
> > including it is sometimes necessary but never harmful. Its consistent
> > omission is often predicated on the quite false assumption that it does the
> > same job as "and" so need never be used alongside it. But "and" is purely
> > conjunctive whereas the comma can also be disjunctive.
> > - Michael Lewis
> >
> >
> 
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> End of Framers Digest, Vol 154, Issue 6
> ***************************************