[Framers] Framers Digest, Vol 169, Issue 9
Tarlochan S. Nahal
tnahal10 at gmail.com
Thu Apr 9 14:53:42 PDT 2020
Dear Framers,
Sorry, the cartoon image (sumo wrestlers Framaker vs. Interleaf) that I had
attached, did not go through. I will be happy to email it you if you send
me an email.
Thanks
Tarlochan S. Nahal
tnahal10 at gmail.com
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 2:19 PM <framers-request at lists.frameusers.com> wrote:
> Send Framers mailing list submissions to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
> http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com You
> can reach the person managing the list at
> framers-owner at lists.frameusers.com When replying, please edit your
> Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Framers
> digest..."
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Framers Digest, Vol 169, Issue 8 (Tarlochan S. Nahal)
> 2. Re: cartoon (Craig Ede)
> 3. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Robert Lauriston)
> 4. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (jackdeland at comcast.net)
> 5. Re: Framers Digest, Vol 169, Issue 8 (Peter Gold)
> 6. Please change subject line for digest posts and trim them
> (Carol J. Elkins)
> 7. FrameMaker User Groups WAS: Framers Digest, Vol 169, Issue
> 8 (Craig Ede)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 11:32:49 -0700
> From: "Tarlochan S. Nahal" <tnahal10 at gmail.com>
> To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Framers Digest, Vol 169, Issue 8
> Message-ID:
> <CAPEhaq6651ABsd2G6SKW1zihFUX=
> 1WMvspqEqGB_sPtK0E8Zog at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> My nostalgia goes further back!
>
> As many of you might know there was another heavy-weight technical
> publishing tool called Interleaf. I really liked it and had a much better
> graphic tool when FrameMaker was not even able to create a "dotted line,"
> but it practically disappeared by the mid-1990s. There might still be some
> licenses floating around, especially with some defense contractors.
>
> FrameMaker was coming strong in the early 1990s and Interleaf was losing
> steam fairly rapidly. Why? Well, Interleaf started to dilly-dally on
> customer service and won't pick phone calls if anyone had any problems with
> installation or usage. It was a great software, but it failed to keep up
> with customer demands. Sometimes I feel the same way about FrameMaker
> today. Why doesn't the installation link always work? Why do you have to
> spend hours on the phone with customer service to get it going? Why don't
> they have user group meetings in the local high tech companies once in a
> month as they did in the 1990s? It was great way to get real customer
> feedback from people who are the actual users and front-line warriors. They
> almost mishandled DITA and abdicated their responsibility to XML DITA, etc.
> As a result, Adobe lost a significant market share to other vendors. In
> spite of all that I have been a loyal user of FrameMaker for decades.
>
> Anyway, I share with you a cartoon in the form of two sumo wrestlers that
> I asked a friend of mine Bill Bergman to make for me in 1992. Please enjoy.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Tarlochan Nahal
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 2:19 PM <framers-request at lists.frameusers.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Send Framers mailing list submissions to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
> > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com You
> > can reach the person managing the list at
> > framers-owner at lists.frameusers.com When replying, please edit your
> > Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Framers
> > digest..."
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Jerilynne Knight)
> > 2. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Peter Gold)
> > 3. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Jerilynne Knight)
> > 4. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Peter Gold)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 21:33:46 -0400
> > From: Jerilynne Knight <jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > Message-ID:
> > <CA+h60BiK0c93dqh5AFKytW0b_hfy_J=
> > kBdboCa0aTg-nc+xb7w at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > Oh wowser Mark...I forgot about the Gem environment! And I remember that
> > DOS-based machine...had one of them!
> >
> > J
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 2:42 PM Mark Soiseth <mark.soiseth at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I got a job with a company who used Ventura on the GEM environment. It
> > > allowed me to shoot myself in the foot so easily. But, once I learned
> how
> > > to apply the rules, etc., I was amazed. And this was on DOS-based
> > machines
> > > with a 8086 chip and only 640 kb of RAM.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 21:01:22 -0500
> > From: Peter Gold <peter at petergold.photography>
> > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > Message-ID:
> > <CAGoR+AjTF1O3Q198gSbAaArp7149imHuriuLp6SKZNPjw=
> > aTmg at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > Corel's not the first company to have shot itself in the foot. Many of us
> > have first-have experience. Oooops, should that be "first-foot?"
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020, 1:41 PM Mark Soiseth <mark.soiseth at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > I got a job with a company who used Ventura on the GEM environment. It
> > > allowed me to shoot myself in the foot so easily. But, once I learned
> how
> > > to apply the rules, etc., I was amazed. And this was on DOS-based
> > machines
> > > with a 8086 chip and only 640 kb of RAM.
> > >
> > > But, yes, Corel did not do it justice.
> > >
> > > On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 at 05:05, Jerilynne Knight <
> > jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Bjorn...I didn't follow Ventura that far into present time,
> > although I
> > > > loved it when I learned it a Xerox. Once Corel took it over, I
> though I
> > > was
> > > > the only one who was both disappointed and disgusted with the poor
> job
> > > they
> > > > were doing!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 5:00 PM Studio Smalbro <studio at smalbro.dk>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I followed Ventura all the way from the early versions on floppy
> > disks
> > > > > to the latest Corel Version 10.
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > > >
> > > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > > Archives located at
> > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > >
> > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > Archives located at
> > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 22:13:42 -0400
> > From: Jerilynne Knight <jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > Message-ID:
> > <CA+h60BhfQnHTJ8HASmtoEUjwzdpW=LEe6aQB6J=
> > WreckSbfJ_A at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > Oh lordy Peter, don't even get me started on that topic!!! lol
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 10:01 PM Peter Gold <peter at petergold.photography>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Corel's not the first company to have shot itself in the foot. Many of
> us
> > > have first-have experience. Oooops, should that be "first-foot?"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 21:27:50 -0500
> > From: Peter Gold <peter at petergold.photography>
> > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > Message-ID:
> > <CAGoR+Ag5ebCw=SJ=hbhUEfy6s+yY=iOscz=
> > ecwMWSzW7+yYQZw at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > Dang autocorrect. Should have been "first-hand" not "first-have."
> >
> > Ok, I won't start your feet moving down that path. ;)
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020, 9:13 PM Jerilynne Knight <
> jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Oh lordy Peter, don't even get me started on that topic!!! lol
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 10:01 PM Peter Gold <peter at petergold.photography
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Corel's not the first company to have shot itself in the foot. Many
> of
> > us
> > > > have first-have experience. Oooops, should that be "first-foot?"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > >
> > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > Archives located at
> > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > This daily digest is from the Framers mailing list
> >
> > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > Archives located at
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of Framers Digest, Vol 169, Issue 8
> > ***************************************
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> Name: FrameMaker vs. Interleaf 1992 Cartoon TNahal.JPG
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> Size: 239942 bytes
> Desc: not available
> URL: <
> http://lists.frameusers.com/pipermail/framers-frameusers.com/attachments/20200409/a715aa84/attachment.jpe
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 18:44:27 +0000
> From: Craig Ede <craigede at hotmail.com>
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: Re: [Framers] cartoon
> Message-ID:
> <
> DM5PR07MB35777DFA773619A0307852E0D5C10 at DM5PR07MB3577.namprd07.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Tarlochan Nahal,
>
> The cartoon didn't attach to the post. Can you send it to me directly.
>
> Thanks.
> Craig Ede
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 11:52:11 -0700
> From: Robert Lauriston <robert at lauriston.com>
> To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> Message-ID:
> <CAN3Yy4DPhOdA1=ibBjtDJRea998AqeEdr_18+0F=
> UptZhNFkXA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Interleaf was eventually acquired by Broadleaf, which renamed it
> Quicksilver, which still exists.
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 11:33 AM Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnahal10 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > My nostalgia goes further back!
> >
> > As many of you might know there was another heavy-weight technical
> > publishing tool called Interleaf. I really liked it and had a much better
> > graphic tool when FrameMaker was not even able to create a "dotted line,"
> > but it practically disappeared by the mid-1990s. There might still be
> some
> > licenses floating around, especially with some defense contractors. ...
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 14:54:24 -0400
> From: <jackdeland at comcast.net>
> To: "'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'"
> <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> Message-ID: <029501d60ea0$49e46770$ddad3650$@comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Reading all this nostalgia makes ME feel young again. And I was at the
> Apollo 11 launch.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 14:16:27 -0500
> From: Peter Gold <peter at petergold.photography>
> To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Framers Digest, Vol 169, Issue 8
> Message-ID:
> <CAGoR+Ajr+vGiO2P1DTJs=mTC=
> BSH7fqKcf2ccq0k+yAGUCzN9w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Obviously two sumo wrestlers are too big to fit through the filter mesh at
> once. Perhaps try sending one at a time ;) Otherwise, please consider
> posting the cartoon to DropBox or a similar sharing repository.
>
> Yes, the company user group meetings bring back memories! In 1994, I
> started doing tech support for a Silicon Valley FrameMaker reseller. Our
> customers comprised almost all of the then major tech companies. I used to
> visit a few customer sites regularly, to sit in on user groups, or to hold
> one-on-one problem-solving sessions.
>
> The company's principals developed, then sold off, the first UNIX
> license-management software, which enabled Frame Technology to sell FM with
> more-affordable floating licenses. They also developed a table-calculation
> add-on tool for FrameMaker tables, for FM3 on UNIX. Adobe declined their
> offer to sell licensing rights when they bought Frame Technology, because
> they claimed they intended to build their own table calculator into a
> future release.
>
> Don't regret those user groups that may seem lost; this and other online
> FrameMaker forums that date back to the dawn of the internet, are the
> evolved versions of those early UGs.
>
> The first feature FM I saw that blew me away was the built-in screenshot
> option on UNIX FM3 in 1989!
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 1:32 PM Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnahal10 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > My nostalgia goes further back!
> >
> > As many of you might know there was another heavy-weight technical
> > publishing tool called Interleaf. I really liked it and had a much better
> > graphic tool when FrameMaker was not even able to create a "dotted line,"
> > but it practically disappeared by the mid-1990s. There might still be
> some
> > licenses floating around, especially with some defense contractors.
> >
> > FrameMaker was coming strong in the early 1990s and Interleaf was losing
> > steam fairly rapidly. Why? Well, Interleaf started to dilly-dally on
> > customer service and won't pick phone calls if anyone had any problems
> with
> > installation or usage. It was a great software, but it failed to keep up
> > with customer demands. Sometimes I feel the same way about FrameMaker
> > today. Why doesn't the installation link always work? Why do you have to
> > spend hours on the phone with customer service to get it going? Why don't
> > they have user group meetings in the local high tech companies once in a
> > month as they did in the 1990s? It was great way to get real customer
> > feedback from people who are the actual users and front-line warriors.
> They
> > almost mishandled DITA and abdicated their responsibility to XML DITA,
> etc.
> > As a result, Adobe lost a significant market share to other vendors. In
> > spite of all that I have been a loyal user of FrameMaker for decades.
> >
> > Anyway, I share with you a cartoon in the form of two sumo wrestlers
> that
> > I asked a friend of mine Bill Bergman to make for me in 1992. Please
> enjoy.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Tarlochan Nahal
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 2:19 PM <framers-request at lists.frameusers.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Send Framers mailing list submissions to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
> > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com You
> > > can reach the person managing the list at
> > > framers-owner at lists.frameusers.com When replying, please edit your
> > > Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Framers
> > > digest..."
> > >
> > > Today's Topics:
> > >
> > > 1. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Jerilynne Knight)
> > > 2. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Peter Gold)
> > > 3. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Jerilynne Knight)
> > > 4. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Peter Gold)
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 21:33:46 -0400
> > > From: Jerilynne Knight <jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > > Message-ID:
> > > <CA+h60BiK0c93dqh5AFKytW0b_hfy_J=
> > > kBdboCa0aTg-nc+xb7w at mail.gmail.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > >
> > > Oh wowser Mark...I forgot about the Gem environment! And I remember
> that
> > > DOS-based machine...had one of them!
> > >
> > > J
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 2:42 PM Mark Soiseth <mark.soiseth at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I got a job with a company who used Ventura on the GEM environment.
> It
> > > > allowed me to shoot myself in the foot so easily. But, once I learned
> > how
> > > > to apply the rules, etc., I was amazed. And this was on DOS-based
> > > machines
> > > > with a 8086 chip and only 640 kb of RAM.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 2
> > > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 21:01:22 -0500
> > > From: Peter Gold <peter at petergold.photography>
> > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > > Message-ID:
> > > <CAGoR+AjTF1O3Q198gSbAaArp7149imHuriuLp6SKZNPjw=
> > > aTmg at mail.gmail.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > >
> > > Corel's not the first company to have shot itself in the foot. Many of
> us
> > > have first-have experience. Oooops, should that be "first-foot?"
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020, 1:41 PM Mark Soiseth <mark.soiseth at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I got a job with a company who used Ventura on the GEM environment.
> It
> > > > allowed me to shoot myself in the foot so easily. But, once I learned
> > how
> > > > to apply the rules, etc., I was amazed. And this was on DOS-based
> > > machines
> > > > with a 8086 chip and only 640 kb of RAM.
> > > >
> > > > But, yes, Corel did not do it justice.
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 at 05:05, Jerilynne Knight <
> > > jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Bjorn...I didn't follow Ventura that far into present time,
> > > although I
> > > > > loved it when I learned it a Xerox. Once Corel took it over, I
> > though I
> > > > was
> > > > > the only one who was both disappointed and disgusted with the poor
> > job
> > > > they
> > > > > were doing!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 5:00 PM Studio Smalbro <studio at smalbro.dk>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I followed Ventura all the way from the early versions on floppy
> > > disks
> > > > > > to the latest Corel Version 10.
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > > > >
> > > > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > > > Archives located at
> > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > > >
> > > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > > Archives located at
> > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 3
> > > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 22:13:42 -0400
> > > From: Jerilynne Knight <jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > > Message-ID:
> > > <CA+h60BhfQnHTJ8HASmtoEUjwzdpW=LEe6aQB6J=
> > > WreckSbfJ_A at mail.gmail.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > >
> > > Oh lordy Peter, don't even get me started on that topic!!! lol
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 10:01 PM Peter Gold <peter at petergold.photography
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Corel's not the first company to have shot itself in the foot. Many
> of
> > us
> > > > have first-have experience. Oooops, should that be "first-foot?"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 4
> > > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 21:27:50 -0500
> > > From: Peter Gold <peter at petergold.photography>
> > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > > Message-ID:
> > > <CAGoR+Ag5ebCw=SJ=hbhUEfy6s+yY=iOscz=
> > > ecwMWSzW7+yYQZw at mail.gmail.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > >
> > > Dang autocorrect. Should have been "first-hand" not "first-have."
> > >
> > > Ok, I won't start your feet moving down that path. ;)
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020, 9:13 PM Jerilynne Knight <
> > jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Oh lordy Peter, don't even get me started on that topic!!! lol
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 10:01 PM Peter Gold
> <peter at petergold.photography
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Corel's not the first company to have shot itself in the foot. Many
> > of
> > > us
> > > > > have first-have experience. Oooops, should that be "first-foot?"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > > >
> > > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > > Archives located at
> > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Subject: Digest Footer
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > This daily digest is from the Framers mailing list
> > >
> > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > Archives located at
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> > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > End of Framers Digest, Vol 169, Issue 8
> > > ***************************************
> > >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> > Name: FrameMaker vs. Interleaf 1992 Cartoon TNahal.JPG
> > Type: image/jpeg
> > Size: 239942 bytes
> > Desc: not available
> > URL: <
> >
> http://lists.frameusers.com/pipermail/framers-frameusers.com/attachments/20200409/a715aa84/attachment.jpe
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> >
> > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
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> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 13:26:15 -0600
> From: "Carol J. Elkins" <celkins at awrittenword.com>
> To: <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: [Framers] Please change subject line for digest posts and
> trim them
> Message-ID:
> <
> mailman.76369.1586460377.2344.framers-frameusers.com at lists.frameusers.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> Framers, remember that when you are on digest and respond to a post,
> you must change the subject line and also trim out all of the
> original digest messages, leaving only a sentence or two of the
> message that you are replying to. When someone forgets to do this,
> then the error perpetuates as more messages contain the wrong subject
> and are littered with the original digest content (as shown below).
> Please help by remembering to make these changes.
>
> Carol Elkins
> List Mom
>
> At 01:16 PM 4/9/2020, Peter Gold wrote:
> >Obviously two sumo wrestlers are too big to fit through the filter mesh at
> >once. Perhaps try sending one at a time ;) Otherwise, please consider
> >posting the cartoon to DropBox or a similar sharing repository.
> >
> >Yes, the company user group meetings bring back memories! In 1994, I
> >started doing tech support for a Silicon Valley FrameMaker reseller. Our
> >customers comprised almost all of the then major tech companies. I used to
> >visit a few customer sites regularly, to sit in on user groups, or to hold
> >one-on-one problem-solving sessions.
> >
> >The company's principals developed, then sold off, the first UNIX
> >license-management software, which enabled Frame Technology to sell FM
> with
> >more-affordable floating licenses. They also developed a table-calculation
> >add-on tool for FrameMaker tables, for FM3 on UNIX. Adobe declined their
> >offer to sell licensing rights when they bought Frame Technology, because
> >they claimed they intended to build their own table calculator into a
> >future release.
> >
> >Don't regret those user groups that may seem lost; this and other online
> >FrameMaker forums that date back to the dawn of the internet, are the
> >evolved versions of those early UGs.
> >
> >The first feature FM I saw that blew me away was the built-in screenshot
> >option on UNIX FM3 in 1989!
> >
> >On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 1:32 PM Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnahal10 at gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> > > My nostalgia goes further back!
> > >
> > > As many of you might know there was another heavy-weight technical
> > > publishing tool called Interleaf. I really liked it and had a much
> better
> > > graphic tool when FrameMaker was not even able to create a "dotted
> line,"
> > > but it practically disappeared by the mid-1990s. There might still be
> some
> > > licenses floating around, especially with some defense contractors.
> > >
> > > FrameMaker was coming strong in the early 1990s and Interleaf was
> losing
> > > steam fairly rapidly. Why? Well, Interleaf started to dilly-dally on
> > > customer service and won't pick phone calls if anyone had any problems
> with
> > > installation or usage. It was a great software, but it failed to keep
> up
> > > with customer demands. Sometimes I feel the same way about FrameMaker
> > > today. Why doesn't the installation link always work? Why do you have
> to
> > > spend hours on the phone with customer service to get it going? Why
> don't
> > > they have user group meetings in the local high tech companies once in
> a
> > > month as they did in the 1990s? It was great way to get real customer
> > > feedback from people who are the actual users and front-line warriors.
> They
> > > almost mishandled DITA and abdicated their responsibility to XML DITA,
> etc.
> > > As a result, Adobe lost a significant market share to other vendors. In
> > > spite of all that I have been a loyal user of FrameMaker for decades.
> > >
> > > Anyway, I share with you a cartoon in the form of two sumo wrestlers
> that
> > > I asked a friend of mine Bill Bergman to make for me in 1992. Please
> enjoy.
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Tarlochan Nahal
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 2:19 PM <framers-request at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Send Framers mailing list submissions to
> framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
> > > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com You
> > > > can reach the person managing the list at
> > > > framers-owner at lists.frameusers.com When replying, please edit your
> > > > Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Framers
> > > > digest..."
> > > >
> > > > Today's Topics:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Jerilynne Knight)
> > > > 2. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Peter Gold)
> > > > 3. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Jerilynne Knight)
> > > > 4. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Peter Gold)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 1
> > > > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 21:33:46 -0400
> > > > From: Jerilynne Knight <jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > > > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > > > Message-ID:
> > > > <CA+h60BiK0c93dqh5AFKytW0b_hfy_J=
> > > > kBdboCa0aTg-nc+xb7w at mail.gmail.com>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > > >
> > > > Oh wowser Mark...I forgot about the Gem environment! And I remember
> that
> > > > DOS-based machine...had one of them!
> > > >
> > > > J
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 2:42 PM Mark Soiseth <mark.soiseth at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I got a job with a company who used Ventura on the GEM
> environment. It
> > > > > allowed me to shoot myself in the foot so easily. But, once I
> learned
> > > how
> > > > > to apply the rules, etc., I was amazed. And this was on DOS-based
> > > > machines
> > > > > with a 8086 chip and only 640 kb of RAM.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 2
> > > > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 21:01:22 -0500
> > > > From: Peter Gold <peter at petergold.photography>
> > > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > > > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > > > Message-ID:
> > > > <CAGoR+AjTF1O3Q198gSbAaArp7149imHuriuLp6SKZNPjw=
> > > > aTmg at mail.gmail.com>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > > >
> > > > Corel's not the first company to have shot itself in the foot. Many
> of us
> > > > have first-have experience. Oooops, should that be "first-foot?"
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020, 1:41 PM Mark Soiseth <mark.soiseth at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I got a job with a company who used Ventura on the GEM
> environment. It
> > > > > allowed me to shoot myself in the foot so easily. But, once I
> learned
> > > how
> > > > > to apply the rules, etc., I was amazed. And this was on DOS-based
> > > > machines
> > > > > with a 8086 chip and only 640 kb of RAM.
> > > > >
> > > > > But, yes, Corel did not do it justice.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 at 05:05, Jerilynne Knight <
> > > > jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Bjorn...I didn't follow Ventura that far into present time,
> > > > although I
> > > > > > loved it when I learned it a Xerox. Once Corel took it over, I
> > > though I
> > > > > was
> > > > > > the only one who was both disappointed and disgusted with the
> poor
> > > job
> > > > > they
> > > > > > were doing!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 5:00 PM Studio Smalbro <studio at smalbro.dk
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I followed Ventura all the way from the early versions on
> floppy
> > > > disks
> > > > > > > to the latest Corel Version 10.
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > > > > Archives located at
> > > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > > > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > > > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > > > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > > > >
> > > > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > > > Archives located at
> > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 3
> > > > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 22:13:42 -0400
> > > > From: Jerilynne Knight <jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > > > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > > > Message-ID:
> > > > <CA+h60BhfQnHTJ8HASmtoEUjwzdpW=LEe6aQB6J=
> > > > WreckSbfJ_A at mail.gmail.com>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > > >
> > > > Oh lordy Peter, don't even get me started on that topic!!! lol
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 10:01 PM Peter Gold
> <peter at petergold.photography>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Corel's not the first company to have shot itself in the foot.
> Many of
> > > us
> > > > > have first-have experience. Oooops, should that be "first-foot?"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 4
> > > > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 21:27:50 -0500
> > > > From: Peter Gold <peter at petergold.photography>
> > > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > > > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > > > Message-ID:
> > > > <CAGoR+Ag5ebCw=SJ=hbhUEfy6s+yY=iOscz=
> > > > ecwMWSzW7+yYQZw at mail.gmail.com>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > > >
> > > > Dang autocorrect. Should have been "first-hand" not "first-have."
> > > >
> > > > Ok, I won't start your feet moving down that path. ;)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020, 9:13 PM Jerilynne Knight <
> > > jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Oh lordy Peter, don't even get me started on that topic!!! lol
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 10:01 PM Peter Gold
> <peter at petergold.photography
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Corel's not the first company to have shot itself in the foot.
> Many
> > > of
> > > > us
> > > > > > have first-have experience. Oooops, should that be "first-foot?"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > > > >
> > > > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > > > Archives located at
> > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Subject: Digest Footer
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > This daily digest is from the Framers mailing list
> > > >
> > > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > > Archives located at
> > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > End of Framers Digest, Vol 169, Issue 8
> > > > ***************************************
> > > >
> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> > > Name: FrameMaker vs. Interleaf 1992 Cartoon TNahal.JPG
> > > Type: image/jpeg
> > > Size: 239942 bytes
> > > Desc: not available
> > > URL: <
> > >
> >
> http://lists.frameusers.com/pipermail/framers-frameusers.com/attachments/20200409/a715aa84/attachment.jpe
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > >
> > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > Archives located at
> > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > >
> > >
> >_______________________________________________
> >
> >This message is from the Framers mailing list
> >
> >Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> >Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> >Archives located at
> >http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> >Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> >http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> >Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 19:42:37 +0000
> From: Craig Ede <craigede at hotmail.com>
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: [Framers] FrameMaker User Groups WAS: Framers Digest, Vol
> 169, Issue 8
> Message-ID:
> <
> DM5PR07MB357785FF854199727EA83443D5C10 at DM5PR07MB3577.namprd07.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I remember giving a presentation on auto-numbering paragraphs (including
> different head levels, figures, tables, etc. in a single numbering system)
> to one of these User Groups at Medtronic in Minneapolis back in the 90s.
> That group had folks from the airline as well as medical device industries
> as well as others.
>
> Rolling along partway into the presentation I had someone from a rather
> substantial audience say "Wait a minute!" and then point out an error in my
> method. I turned around to look at the huge screen behind me and realized
> she was right. I was stunned, frozen in the glare of the screen,
> recognizing that my method was not going to work properly. A presenter's
> nightmare.
>
> After a few moments (that seemed very long moments) I turned back to the
> audience and said. "You're right. Let's fix this." I then did a revamping
> of the method right there in front of the audience, highlighting the errors
> and explaining the corrections. All that took place without a blip and the
> newly defined method worked like a charm. The Adobe rep who was in the
> audience later congratulated me on getting out of a pretty tough spot by
> giving the audience a hand's on troubleshooting session that highlighted
> many important aspects of how auto-numbering works (and how it doesn't).
> That day I lost my fear of screwing up in front of an audience.
>
> There may be a few Twin-Citians out there who recall this. If so, don't
> publicly burst my bubble if your recollection is different. Still, I trust
> the impression of that Adobe rep.
>
> Craig
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> This daily digest is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
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> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Framers Digest, Vol 169, Issue 9
> ***************************************
>
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