[Framers] Framers Digest, Vol 169, Issue 9
Art Campbell
art.campbell at gmail.com
Fri Apr 10 05:33:50 PDT 2020
Perhaps you could also remember not to Reply to the Digest, so we don't
receive it twice, please?
Art Campbell
art.campbell at gmail.com
"... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and
a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
No disclaimers apply.
DoD 358
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 5:54 PM Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnahal10 at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Dear Framers,
>
> Sorry, the cartoon image (sumo wrestlers Framaker vs. Interleaf) that I had
> attached, did not go through. I will be happy to email it you if you send
> me an email.
>
> Thanks
>
> Tarlochan S. Nahal
> tnahal10 at gmail.com
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 2:19 PM <framers-request at lists.frameusers.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Send Framers mailing list submissions to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
> > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com You
> > can reach the person managing the list at
> > framers-owner at lists.frameusers.com When replying, please edit your
> > Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Framers
> > digest..."
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Framers Digest, Vol 169, Issue 8 (Tarlochan S. Nahal)
> > 2. Re: cartoon (Craig Ede)
> > 3. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Robert Lauriston)
> > 4. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (jackdeland at comcast.net)
> > 5. Re: Framers Digest, Vol 169, Issue 8 (Peter Gold)
> > 6. Please change subject line for digest posts and trim them
> > (Carol J. Elkins)
> > 7. FrameMaker User Groups WAS: Framers Digest, Vol 169, Issue
> > 8 (Craig Ede)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 11:32:49 -0700
> > From: "Tarlochan S. Nahal" <tnahal10 at gmail.com>
> > To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Framers Digest, Vol 169, Issue 8
> > Message-ID:
> > <CAPEhaq6651ABsd2G6SKW1zihFUX=
> > 1WMvspqEqGB_sPtK0E8Zog at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > My nostalgia goes further back!
> >
> > As many of you might know there was another heavy-weight technical
> > publishing tool called Interleaf. I really liked it and had a much better
> > graphic tool when FrameMaker was not even able to create a "dotted line,"
> > but it practically disappeared by the mid-1990s. There might still be
> some
> > licenses floating around, especially with some defense contractors.
> >
> > FrameMaker was coming strong in the early 1990s and Interleaf was losing
> > steam fairly rapidly. Why? Well, Interleaf started to dilly-dally on
> > customer service and won't pick phone calls if anyone had any problems
> with
> > installation or usage. It was a great software, but it failed to keep up
> > with customer demands. Sometimes I feel the same way about FrameMaker
> > today. Why doesn't the installation link always work? Why do you have to
> > spend hours on the phone with customer service to get it going? Why don't
> > they have user group meetings in the local high tech companies once in a
> > month as they did in the 1990s? It was great way to get real customer
> > feedback from people who are the actual users and front-line warriors.
> They
> > almost mishandled DITA and abdicated their responsibility to XML DITA,
> etc.
> > As a result, Adobe lost a significant market share to other vendors. In
> > spite of all that I have been a loyal user of FrameMaker for decades.
> >
> > Anyway, I share with you a cartoon in the form of two sumo wrestlers
> that
> > I asked a friend of mine Bill Bergman to make for me in 1992. Please
> enjoy.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Tarlochan Nahal
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 2:19 PM <framers-request at lists.frameusers.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Send Framers mailing list submissions to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
> > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com You
> > > can reach the person managing the list at
> > > framers-owner at lists.frameusers.com When replying, please edit your
> > > Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Framers
> > > digest..."
> > >
> > > Today's Topics:
> > >
> > > 1. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Jerilynne Knight)
> > > 2. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Peter Gold)
> > > 3. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Jerilynne Knight)
> > > 4. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Peter Gold)
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 21:33:46 -0400
> > > From: Jerilynne Knight <jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > > Message-ID:
> > > <CA+h60BiK0c93dqh5AFKytW0b_hfy_J=
> > > kBdboCa0aTg-nc+xb7w at mail.gmail.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > >
> > > Oh wowser Mark...I forgot about the Gem environment! And I remember
> that
> > > DOS-based machine...had one of them!
> > >
> > > J
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 2:42 PM Mark Soiseth <mark.soiseth at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I got a job with a company who used Ventura on the GEM environment.
> It
> > > > allowed me to shoot myself in the foot so easily. But, once I learned
> > how
> > > > to apply the rules, etc., I was amazed. And this was on DOS-based
> > > machines
> > > > with a 8086 chip and only 640 kb of RAM.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 2
> > > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 21:01:22 -0500
> > > From: Peter Gold <peter at petergold.photography>
> > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > > Message-ID:
> > > <CAGoR+AjTF1O3Q198gSbAaArp7149imHuriuLp6SKZNPjw=
> > > aTmg at mail.gmail.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > >
> > > Corel's not the first company to have shot itself in the foot. Many of
> us
> > > have first-have experience. Oooops, should that be "first-foot?"
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020, 1:41 PM Mark Soiseth <mark.soiseth at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I got a job with a company who used Ventura on the GEM environment.
> It
> > > > allowed me to shoot myself in the foot so easily. But, once I learned
> > how
> > > > to apply the rules, etc., I was amazed. And this was on DOS-based
> > > machines
> > > > with a 8086 chip and only 640 kb of RAM.
> > > >
> > > > But, yes, Corel did not do it justice.
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 at 05:05, Jerilynne Knight <
> > > jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Bjorn...I didn't follow Ventura that far into present time,
> > > although I
> > > > > loved it when I learned it a Xerox. Once Corel took it over, I
> > though I
> > > > was
> > > > > the only one who was both disappointed and disgusted with the poor
> > job
> > > > they
> > > > > were doing!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 5:00 PM Studio Smalbro <studio at smalbro.dk>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I followed Ventura all the way from the early versions on floppy
> > > disks
> > > > > > to the latest Corel Version 10.
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > > > >
> > > > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > > > Archives located at
> > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > > >
> > > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > > Archives located at
> > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 3
> > > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 22:13:42 -0400
> > > From: Jerilynne Knight <jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > > Message-ID:
> > > <CA+h60BhfQnHTJ8HASmtoEUjwzdpW=LEe6aQB6J=
> > > WreckSbfJ_A at mail.gmail.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > >
> > > Oh lordy Peter, don't even get me started on that topic!!! lol
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 10:01 PM Peter Gold <peter at petergold.photography
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Corel's not the first company to have shot itself in the foot. Many
> of
> > us
> > > > have first-have experience. Oooops, should that be "first-foot?"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 4
> > > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 21:27:50 -0500
> > > From: Peter Gold <peter at petergold.photography>
> > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > > Message-ID:
> > > <CAGoR+Ag5ebCw=SJ=hbhUEfy6s+yY=iOscz=
> > > ecwMWSzW7+yYQZw at mail.gmail.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > >
> > > Dang autocorrect. Should have been "first-hand" not "first-have."
> > >
> > > Ok, I won't start your feet moving down that path. ;)
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020, 9:13 PM Jerilynne Knight <
> > jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Oh lordy Peter, don't even get me started on that topic!!! lol
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 10:01 PM Peter Gold
> <peter at petergold.photography
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Corel's not the first company to have shot itself in the foot. Many
> > of
> > > us
> > > > > have first-have experience. Oooops, should that be "first-foot?"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > > >
> > > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > > Archives located at
> > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Subject: Digest Footer
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > This daily digest is from the Framers mailing list
> > >
> > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > Archives located at
> > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > End of Framers Digest, Vol 169, Issue 8
> > > ***************************************
> > >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> > Name: FrameMaker vs. Interleaf 1992 Cartoon TNahal.JPG
> > Type: image/jpeg
> > Size: 239942 bytes
> > Desc: not available
> > URL: <
> >
> http://lists.frameusers.com/pipermail/framers-frameusers.com/attachments/20200409/a715aa84/attachment.jpe
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 18:44:27 +0000
> > From: Craig Ede <craigede at hotmail.com>
> > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] cartoon
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> >
> DM5PR07MB35777DFA773619A0307852E0D5C10 at DM5PR07MB3577.namprd07.prod.outlook.com
> > >
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Tarlochan Nahal,
> >
> > The cartoon didn't attach to the post. Can you send it to me directly.
> >
> > Thanks.
> > Craig Ede
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 11:52:11 -0700
> > From: Robert Lauriston <robert at lauriston.com>
> > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > Message-ID:
> > <CAN3Yy4DPhOdA1=ibBjtDJRea998AqeEdr_18+0F=
> > UptZhNFkXA at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > Interleaf was eventually acquired by Broadleaf, which renamed it
> > Quicksilver, which still exists.
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 11:33 AM Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnahal10 at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > My nostalgia goes further back!
> > >
> > > As many of you might know there was another heavy-weight technical
> > > publishing tool called Interleaf. I really liked it and had a much
> better
> > > graphic tool when FrameMaker was not even able to create a "dotted
> line,"
> > > but it practically disappeared by the mid-1990s. There might still be
> > some
> > > licenses floating around, especially with some defense contractors. ...
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 14:54:24 -0400
> > From: <jackdeland at comcast.net>
> > To: "'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'"
> > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > Message-ID: <029501d60ea0$49e46770$ddad3650$@comcast.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Reading all this nostalgia makes ME feel young again. And I was at the
> > Apollo 11 launch.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 14:16:27 -0500
> > From: Peter Gold <peter at petergold.photography>
> > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Framers Digest, Vol 169, Issue 8
> > Message-ID:
> > <CAGoR+Ajr+vGiO2P1DTJs=mTC=
> > BSH7fqKcf2ccq0k+yAGUCzN9w at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > Obviously two sumo wrestlers are too big to fit through the filter mesh
> at
> > once. Perhaps try sending one at a time ;) Otherwise, please consider
> > posting the cartoon to DropBox or a similar sharing repository.
> >
> > Yes, the company user group meetings bring back memories! In 1994, I
> > started doing tech support for a Silicon Valley FrameMaker reseller. Our
> > customers comprised almost all of the then major tech companies. I used
> to
> > visit a few customer sites regularly, to sit in on user groups, or to
> hold
> > one-on-one problem-solving sessions.
> >
> > The company's principals developed, then sold off, the first UNIX
> > license-management software, which enabled Frame Technology to sell FM
> with
> > more-affordable floating licenses. They also developed a
> table-calculation
> > add-on tool for FrameMaker tables, for FM3 on UNIX. Adobe declined their
> > offer to sell licensing rights when they bought Frame Technology, because
> > they claimed they intended to build their own table calculator into a
> > future release.
> >
> > Don't regret those user groups that may seem lost; this and other online
> > FrameMaker forums that date back to the dawn of the internet, are the
> > evolved versions of those early UGs.
> >
> > The first feature FM I saw that blew me away was the built-in screenshot
> > option on UNIX FM3 in 1989!
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 1:32 PM Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnahal10 at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > My nostalgia goes further back!
> > >
> > > As many of you might know there was another heavy-weight technical
> > > publishing tool called Interleaf. I really liked it and had a much
> better
> > > graphic tool when FrameMaker was not even able to create a "dotted
> line,"
> > > but it practically disappeared by the mid-1990s. There might still be
> > some
> > > licenses floating around, especially with some defense contractors.
> > >
> > > FrameMaker was coming strong in the early 1990s and Interleaf was
> losing
> > > steam fairly rapidly. Why? Well, Interleaf started to dilly-dally on
> > > customer service and won't pick phone calls if anyone had any problems
> > with
> > > installation or usage. It was a great software, but it failed to keep
> up
> > > with customer demands. Sometimes I feel the same way about FrameMaker
> > > today. Why doesn't the installation link always work? Why do you have
> to
> > > spend hours on the phone with customer service to get it going? Why
> don't
> > > they have user group meetings in the local high tech companies once in
> a
> > > month as they did in the 1990s? It was great way to get real customer
> > > feedback from people who are the actual users and front-line warriors.
> > They
> > > almost mishandled DITA and abdicated their responsibility to XML DITA,
> > etc.
> > > As a result, Adobe lost a significant market share to other vendors. In
> > > spite of all that I have been a loyal user of FrameMaker for decades.
> > >
> > > Anyway, I share with you a cartoon in the form of two sumo wrestlers
> > that
> > > I asked a friend of mine Bill Bergman to make for me in 1992. Please
> > enjoy.
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Tarlochan Nahal
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 2:19 PM <framers-request at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Send Framers mailing list submissions to
> framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
> > > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com You
> > > > can reach the person managing the list at
> > > > framers-owner at lists.frameusers.com When replying, please edit your
> > > > Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Framers
> > > > digest..."
> > > >
> > > > Today's Topics:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Jerilynne Knight)
> > > > 2. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Peter Gold)
> > > > 3. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Jerilynne Knight)
> > > > 4. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Peter Gold)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 1
> > > > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 21:33:46 -0400
> > > > From: Jerilynne Knight <jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > > > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > > > Message-ID:
> > > > <CA+h60BiK0c93dqh5AFKytW0b_hfy_J=
> > > > kBdboCa0aTg-nc+xb7w at mail.gmail.com>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > > >
> > > > Oh wowser Mark...I forgot about the Gem environment! And I remember
> > that
> > > > DOS-based machine...had one of them!
> > > >
> > > > J
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 2:42 PM Mark Soiseth <mark.soiseth at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I got a job with a company who used Ventura on the GEM environment.
> > It
> > > > > allowed me to shoot myself in the foot so easily. But, once I
> learned
> > > how
> > > > > to apply the rules, etc., I was amazed. And this was on DOS-based
> > > > machines
> > > > > with a 8086 chip and only 640 kb of RAM.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 2
> > > > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 21:01:22 -0500
> > > > From: Peter Gold <peter at petergold.photography>
> > > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > > > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > > > Message-ID:
> > > > <CAGoR+AjTF1O3Q198gSbAaArp7149imHuriuLp6SKZNPjw=
> > > > aTmg at mail.gmail.com>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > > >
> > > > Corel's not the first company to have shot itself in the foot. Many
> of
> > us
> > > > have first-have experience. Oooops, should that be "first-foot?"
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020, 1:41 PM Mark Soiseth <mark.soiseth at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I got a job with a company who used Ventura on the GEM environment.
> > It
> > > > > allowed me to shoot myself in the foot so easily. But, once I
> learned
> > > how
> > > > > to apply the rules, etc., I was amazed. And this was on DOS-based
> > > > machines
> > > > > with a 8086 chip and only 640 kb of RAM.
> > > > >
> > > > > But, yes, Corel did not do it justice.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 at 05:05, Jerilynne Knight <
> > > > jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Bjorn...I didn't follow Ventura that far into present time,
> > > > although I
> > > > > > loved it when I learned it a Xerox. Once Corel took it over, I
> > > though I
> > > > > was
> > > > > > the only one who was both disappointed and disgusted with the
> poor
> > > job
> > > > > they
> > > > > > were doing!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 5:00 PM Studio Smalbro <studio at smalbro.dk
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I followed Ventura all the way from the early versions on
> floppy
> > > > disks
> > > > > > > to the latest Corel Version 10.
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > > > > Archives located at
> > > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > > > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
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> > > > > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > > > >
> > > > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > > > Archives located at
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> > > > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 3
> > > > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 22:13:42 -0400
> > > > From: Jerilynne Knight <jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > > > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > > > Message-ID:
> > > > <CA+h60BhfQnHTJ8HASmtoEUjwzdpW=LEe6aQB6J=
> > > > WreckSbfJ_A at mail.gmail.com>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > > >
> > > > Oh lordy Peter, don't even get me started on that topic!!! lol
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 10:01 PM Peter Gold
> <peter at petergold.photography
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Corel's not the first company to have shot itself in the foot. Many
> > of
> > > us
> > > > > have first-have experience. Oooops, should that be "first-foot?"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 4
> > > > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 21:27:50 -0500
> > > > From: Peter Gold <peter at petergold.photography>
> > > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > > > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > > > Message-ID:
> > > > <CAGoR+Ag5ebCw=SJ=hbhUEfy6s+yY=iOscz=
> > > > ecwMWSzW7+yYQZw at mail.gmail.com>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > > >
> > > > Dang autocorrect. Should have been "first-hand" not "first-have."
> > > >
> > > > Ok, I won't start your feet moving down that path. ;)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020, 9:13 PM Jerilynne Knight <
> > > jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Oh lordy Peter, don't even get me started on that topic!!! lol
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 10:01 PM Peter Gold
> > <peter at petergold.photography
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Corel's not the first company to have shot itself in the foot.
> Many
> > > of
> > > > us
> > > > > > have first-have experience. Oooops, should that be "first-foot?"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > > > >
> > > > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > > > Archives located at
> > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Subject: Digest Footer
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > This daily digest is from the Framers mailing list
> > > >
> > > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > > Archives located at
> > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > End of Framers Digest, Vol 169, Issue 8
> > > > ***************************************
> > > >
> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> > > Name: FrameMaker vs. Interleaf 1992 Cartoon TNahal.JPG
> > > Type: image/jpeg
> > > Size: 239942 bytes
> > > Desc: not available
> > > URL: <
> > >
> >
> http://lists.frameusers.com/pipermail/framers-frameusers.com/attachments/20200409/a715aa84/attachment.jpe
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > >
> > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > Archives located at
> > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 13:26:15 -0600
> > From: "Carol J. Elkins" <celkins at awrittenword.com>
> > To: <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > Subject: [Framers] Please change subject line for digest posts and
> > trim them
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> >
> mailman.76369.1586460377.2344.framers-frameusers.com at lists.frameusers.com>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
> >
> > Framers, remember that when you are on digest and respond to a post,
> > you must change the subject line and also trim out all of the
> > original digest messages, leaving only a sentence or two of the
> > message that you are replying to. When someone forgets to do this,
> > then the error perpetuates as more messages contain the wrong subject
> > and are littered with the original digest content (as shown below).
> > Please help by remembering to make these changes.
> >
> > Carol Elkins
> > List Mom
> >
> > At 01:16 PM 4/9/2020, Peter Gold wrote:
> > >Obviously two sumo wrestlers are too big to fit through the filter mesh
> at
> > >once. Perhaps try sending one at a time ;) Otherwise, please consider
> > >posting the cartoon to DropBox or a similar sharing repository.
> > >
> > >Yes, the company user group meetings bring back memories! In 1994, I
> > >started doing tech support for a Silicon Valley FrameMaker reseller. Our
> > >customers comprised almost all of the then major tech companies. I used
> to
> > >visit a few customer sites regularly, to sit in on user groups, or to
> hold
> > >one-on-one problem-solving sessions.
> > >
> > >The company's principals developed, then sold off, the first UNIX
> > >license-management software, which enabled Frame Technology to sell FM
> > with
> > >more-affordable floating licenses. They also developed a
> table-calculation
> > >add-on tool for FrameMaker tables, for FM3 on UNIX. Adobe declined their
> > >offer to sell licensing rights when they bought Frame Technology,
> because
> > >they claimed they intended to build their own table calculator into a
> > >future release.
> > >
> > >Don't regret those user groups that may seem lost; this and other online
> > >FrameMaker forums that date back to the dawn of the internet, are the
> > >evolved versions of those early UGs.
> > >
> > >The first feature FM I saw that blew me away was the built-in screenshot
> > >option on UNIX FM3 in 1989!
> > >
> > >On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 1:32 PM Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnahal10 at gmail.com>
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > My nostalgia goes further back!
> > > >
> > > > As many of you might know there was another heavy-weight technical
> > > > publishing tool called Interleaf. I really liked it and had a much
> > better
> > > > graphic tool when FrameMaker was not even able to create a "dotted
> > line,"
> > > > but it practically disappeared by the mid-1990s. There might still be
> > some
> > > > licenses floating around, especially with some defense contractors.
> > > >
> > > > FrameMaker was coming strong in the early 1990s and Interleaf was
> > losing
> > > > steam fairly rapidly. Why? Well, Interleaf started to dilly-dally on
> > > > customer service and won't pick phone calls if anyone had any
> problems
> > with
> > > > installation or usage. It was a great software, but it failed to keep
> > up
> > > > with customer demands. Sometimes I feel the same way about FrameMaker
> > > > today. Why doesn't the installation link always work? Why do you have
> > to
> > > > spend hours on the phone with customer service to get it going? Why
> > don't
> > > > they have user group meetings in the local high tech companies once
> in
> > a
> > > > month as they did in the 1990s? It was great way to get real customer
> > > > feedback from people who are the actual users and front-line
> warriors.
> > They
> > > > almost mishandled DITA and abdicated their responsibility to XML
> DITA,
> > etc.
> > > > As a result, Adobe lost a significant market share to other vendors.
> In
> > > > spite of all that I have been a loyal user of FrameMaker for decades.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, I share with you a cartoon in the form of two sumo wrestlers
> > that
> > > > I asked a friend of mine Bill Bergman to make for me in 1992. Please
> > enjoy.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Tarlochan Nahal
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 2:19 PM <framers-request at lists.frameusers.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Send Framers mailing list submissions to
> > framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
> > > > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> You
> > > > > can reach the person managing the list at
> > > > > framers-owner at lists.frameusers.com When replying, please edit your
> > > > > Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Framers
> > > > > digest..."
> > > > >
> > > > > Today's Topics:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Jerilynne Knight)
> > > > > 2. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Peter Gold)
> > > > > 3. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Jerilynne Knight)
> > > > > 4. Re: Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015 (Peter Gold)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Message: 1
> > > > > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 21:33:46 -0400
> > > > > From: Jerilynne Knight <jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > > > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > > > > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > > > > Message-ID:
> > > > > <CA+h60BiK0c93dqh5AFKytW0b_hfy_J=
> > > > > kBdboCa0aTg-nc+xb7w at mail.gmail.com>
> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh wowser Mark...I forgot about the Gem environment! And I remember
> > that
> > > > > DOS-based machine...had one of them!
> > > > >
> > > > > J
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 2:42 PM Mark Soiseth <
> mark.soiseth at gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I got a job with a company who used Ventura on the GEM
> > environment. It
> > > > > > allowed me to shoot myself in the foot so easily. But, once I
> > learned
> > > > how
> > > > > > to apply the rules, etc., I was amazed. And this was on DOS-based
> > > > > machines
> > > > > > with a 8086 chip and only 640 kb of RAM.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Message: 2
> > > > > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 21:01:22 -0500
> > > > > From: Peter Gold <peter at petergold.photography>
> > > > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > > > > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > > > > Message-ID:
> > > > > <CAGoR+AjTF1O3Q198gSbAaArp7149imHuriuLp6SKZNPjw=
> > > > > aTmg at mail.gmail.com>
> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > > > >
> > > > > Corel's not the first company to have shot itself in the foot. Many
> > of us
> > > > > have first-have experience. Oooops, should that be "first-foot?"
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020, 1:41 PM Mark Soiseth <mark.soiseth at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I got a job with a company who used Ventura on the GEM
> > environment. It
> > > > > > allowed me to shoot myself in the foot so easily. But, once I
> > learned
> > > > how
> > > > > > to apply the rules, etc., I was amazed. And this was on DOS-based
> > > > > machines
> > > > > > with a 8086 chip and only 640 kb of RAM.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But, yes, Corel did not do it justice.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 at 05:05, Jerilynne Knight <
> > > > > jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Bjorn...I didn't follow Ventura that far into present time,
> > > > > although I
> > > > > > > loved it when I learned it a Xerox. Once Corel took it over, I
> > > > though I
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > > the only one who was both disappointed and disgusted with the
> > poor
> > > > job
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > were doing!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 5:00 PM Studio Smalbro <
> studio at smalbro.dk
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I followed Ventura all the way from the early versions on
> > floppy
> > > > > disks
> > > > > > > > to the latest Corel Version 10.
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > > > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > > > > > Archives located at
> > > > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > > > > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > > > > >
> http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > > > > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > > > > Archives located at
> > > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > > > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > > > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > > > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Message: 3
> > > > > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 22:13:42 -0400
> > > > > From: Jerilynne Knight <jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > > > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > > > > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > > > > Message-ID:
> > > > > <CA+h60BhfQnHTJ8HASmtoEUjwzdpW=LEe6aQB6J=
> > > > > WreckSbfJ_A at mail.gmail.com>
> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh lordy Peter, don't even get me started on that topic!!! lol
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 10:01 PM Peter Gold
> > <peter at petergold.photography>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Corel's not the first company to have shot itself in the foot.
> > Many of
> > > > us
> > > > > > have first-have experience. Oooops, should that be "first-foot?"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Message: 4
> > > > > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 21:27:50 -0500
> > > > > From: Peter Gold <peter at petergold.photography>
> > > > > To: "An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software."
> > > > > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Framers] Nostalgia - was Re: FrameMaker 2015
> > > > > Message-ID:
> > > > > <CAGoR+Ag5ebCw=SJ=hbhUEfy6s+yY=iOscz=
> > > > > ecwMWSzW7+yYQZw at mail.gmail.com>
> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > > > >
> > > > > Dang autocorrect. Should have been "first-hand" not "first-have."
> > > > >
> > > > > Ok, I won't start your feet moving down that path. ;)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020, 9:13 PM Jerilynne Knight <
> > > > jerilynne.knight at gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Oh lordy Peter, don't even get me started on that topic!!! lol
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 10:01 PM Peter Gold
> > <peter at petergold.photography
> > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Corel's not the first company to have shot itself in the foot.
> > Many
> > > > of
> > > > > us
> > > > > > > have first-have experience. Oooops, should that be
> "first-foot?"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > > > > Archives located at
> > > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > > > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > > > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > > > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Subject: Digest Footer
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > This daily digest is from the Framers mailing list
> > > > >
> > > > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > > > Archives located at
> > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > End of Framers Digest, Vol 169, Issue 8
> > > > > ***************************************
> > > > >
> > > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> > > > Name: FrameMaker vs. Interleaf 1992 Cartoon TNahal.JPG
> > > > Type: image/jpeg
> > > > Size: 239942 bytes
> > > > Desc: not available
> > > > URL: <
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://lists.frameusers.com/pipermail/framers-frameusers.com/attachments/20200409/a715aa84/attachment.jpe
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > > >
> > > > Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > > > Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > > > Archives located at
> > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > > > Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > > > http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >
> > >This message is from the Framers mailing list
> > >
> > >Send messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com
> > >Visit the list's homepage at http://www.frameusers.com
> > >Archives located at
> > >http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> > >Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> > >http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> > >Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 19:42:37 +0000
> > From: Craig Ede <craigede at hotmail.com>
> > To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.
> > <framers at lists.frameusers.com>
> > Subject: [Framers] FrameMaker User Groups WAS: Framers Digest, Vol
> > 169, Issue 8
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> >
> DM5PR07MB357785FF854199727EA83443D5C10 at DM5PR07MB3577.namprd07.prod.outlook.com
> > >
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > I remember giving a presentation on auto-numbering paragraphs (including
> > different head levels, figures, tables, etc. in a single numbering
> system)
> > to one of these User Groups at Medtronic in Minneapolis back in the 90s.
> > That group had folks from the airline as well as medical device
> industries
> > as well as others.
> >
> > Rolling along partway into the presentation I had someone from a rather
> > substantial audience say "Wait a minute!" and then point out an error in
> my
> > method. I turned around to look at the huge screen behind me and realized
> > she was right. I was stunned, frozen in the glare of the screen,
> > recognizing that my method was not going to work properly. A presenter's
> > nightmare.
> >
> > After a few moments (that seemed very long moments) I turned back to the
> > audience and said. "You're right. Let's fix this." I then did a revamping
> > of the method right there in front of the audience, highlighting the
> errors
> > and explaining the corrections. All that took place without a blip and
> the
> > newly defined method worked like a charm. The Adobe rep who was in the
> > audience later congratulated me on getting out of a pretty tough spot by
> > giving the audience a hand's on troubleshooting session that highlighted
> > many important aspects of how auto-numbering works (and how it doesn't).
> > That day I lost my fear of screwing up in front of an audience.
> >
> > There may be a few Twin-Citians out there who recall this. If so, don't
> > publicly burst my bubble if your recollection is different. Still, I
> trust
> > the impression of that Adobe rep.
> >
> > Craig
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of Framers Digest, Vol 169, Issue 9
> > ***************************************
> >
> _______________________________________________
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